EXTRACTS
OF NOTE
21. Can you tell us why you have not insisted on
smoke hoods in aeroplanes?
(Mr Profit) I shall hand that over to Mr Hunt who has a long history and knowledge of the
smoke hood situation.
(Mr Hunt) I should also like to bring Mr Harper in because we have both had an involvement
in this over the years. I guess the action when I
became involved started after the Manchester accident. Some research was done which led to
a number of conclusions and recommendations. The
authority took the view that one of the first things we ought to do was to stop the fire
from happening in the first place so that smoke hoods were
not needed at all, or any other form of protection for that matter. Then, once we had made
the vehicle as safe as we could, we should address
whether or not smoke hoods would actually save lives. We did a great deal of work and
concluded that there were operational disbenefits in
requiring smoke hoods to be fitted and I believe there are also technical problems with
finding a smoke hood which would actually work, which
would fit the whole range of people who might wish to use it or have to use it and that
would in itself create problems. That is a design aspect and
one on which I would ask Mr Harper to comment.
(Mr Harper) The problem is an operational one primarily of donning a smoke hood and the
time taken to vacate the aircraft following the
donning of a smoke hood. The smoke hood itself is not necessarily an easy thing to put on.
(Mr Profit) Perhaps something needs to be understood. As I understand the current design,
they carry their own air supply which has a finite
time before it exhausts itself. Therefore one has to don the hood at the critical moment
before evacuating the aircraft and that is one of the key
problems.
22. What is your estimate of the number of lives saved if smoke hoods were there?
(Mr Profit) In the UK since the Manchester/Kegworth accident I would not think that it
would be a significant number.
(Mr Hunt) If any. I cannot think of a case where it would have saved a life.
(Mr Harper) I do not believe there has been an accident where a smoke hood would have
benefited people.
23. But it would have benefited people in Manchester.
(Mr Profit) Absolutely.
24. And probably in Seoul.
(Mr Profit) Yes, assuming they had smoke hoods which were viable, and could have been
donned at the right time.
(Mr Hunt) I remember from the Manchester inquiry that the so-called challenge atmosphere
was such, the atmosphere inside the cabin with all
the hydrocarbons and noxious fumes which were in the cabin at the time, that there was not
then, and I am not even sure that there is now, a filter
system or whatever which would actually work in that environment. If you use the type Mr
Profit referred to, which is in effect with some sort of air
supply built into it, as the crew might use, then of course the challenge atmosphere is
not such a problem.
25. How many lives have been saved by life jackets in aeroplanes?
(Mr Hunt) I do not know the figure off the top of my head I am afraid. The last UK
accident I can think of would be most probably the accident
in Sumburgh when an aircraft ran off the end of the runway and I seem to recall that some
of the passengers in that accident used the life jackets. I
do not have an actual figure for the number of people whose lives were saved because of
life jackets.
http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm199899/cmselect/cmenvtra/275/9031005.htm
Testimony by HEAD of UKAAIB (mr Smart)
I heard the discussion on smoke hoods. Let me say
that I carry a smoke hood. I have one in my
bag here, but I expect to have to use it more often in an hotel than ever on an aircraft.
If I did, in the very, very rare event, have to use it on an
aircraft, I know how to use it. I accept the regulatory authorities' arguments that after
a lot of research which was done, which was what we asked
for, we did not recommend that smoke hoods should be fitted. I think there is a
misconception about the recommendation which we actually made.
We asked the regulatory authority to consider whether a twin-track approach, smoke hoods
and/or water spray systems, could save lives
effectively. They spent a lot of time and money in researching that particular
recommendation and they came to the conclusions they came to. I can
accept in certain circumstances that it could well delay egress from the aircraft. It is a
very complex subject, because if you are going to introduce
smoke hoods you have to introduce training of people to use them in a very meaningful way,
which would mean it would not cause a delay. To
come back to your original question, no, smoke hoods would not be one of the things which
was top of my particular list of recommendations
which I felt ought to be implemented.
71. May I ask the same question about the Swissair
accident at Nova Scotia?
(Mr Smart) The fire which caused the loss of the Swissair aircraft is thought to be
associated with a wiring problem; the wiring is thought to be
associated. These are not definitive causes for the accident by any means because all the
wreckage in the area of the seat of the fire has not been
recovered yet. It is thought to be associated with the inflight entertainment system
wiring. The spread of the fire is thought to be associated with the
insulation blankets on the aircraft. That is as far as the Canadian Transportation Safety
Board has got with their examination.
http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm199899/cmselect/cmenvtra/275/9031009.htm
Testimony by Cranfield University Rep (Mr
Taylor)
One point I should like to make concerning the cost
of safety features and so forth is that I actually did the sums on the water mist system
which was the system which was recommended in parallel with smoke hoods by the AAIB after
Manchester. There the CAA came up with a figure which I have no reason to doubt at all of
something like $22-32 million per year per life saved, so about 14 lives saved. If you do
those sums it comes out to a lot of money. However, if you take into account that every
year something like 1,600 million passengers fly, then the total cost of saving those 14
livesI believe it would be more than 14would be approximately 50 cents per
return ticket. That puts a different complexion on the costs which are involved in some of
the safety features which have been recommended by the AAIB, by NTSB in the States and by
other organisations.
http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm199899/cmselect/cmenvtra/275/9032404.htm
Testimony by Guild of Air Pilots and
Navigators (GAPAN) and BALPA
(Miss Evans) Our concern there is that the CAA does
sometimes have its hands tied. This goes back a little to the previous question as well:
that
an airline from another JAA state is accepted to have the same standards as a United
Kingdom airline and be subjected to the same regulatory
oversight. We do not believe this is the case. The airline that was grounded for three or
four days last year comes from a JAA state but never goes
near its own JAA state and never receives, in our opinion, satisfactory regulatory
oversight. That is a good example of where the CAA is
constrained.
BALPA does noBALPA does not think that the CAA are
proactive enough in looking at the certification standards of other JAA state
aircraft. That is perhaps where they are constrained.t thin
http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm199899/cmselect/cmenvtra/275/9032407.htmk
Testimony by the Royal Aeronautical Society
(RAS)
Then in what measure and in what manner should we
alter the checking in order to ensure that the regulatory regime remains rigorous?
(Captain Lowe) I think that the audit process is the key to this and there are two
elements to it. One is auditing the management structure and
the processes which are at work, including who is finally accountable. If you look at the
case where someone might have a sub-leased engine on a
sub-leased aeroplane done by a third-party maintenance organisation, there needs to be in
place an accountable structure to say who is responsible
for the aeroplane.
230. I have to say, Captain Lowe, the operation of safety cases in other transport
industries when there is an extension by the use of contractors
and sub-contractors is not a good example to use, because the further away that the actual
job gets from the person who has the safety case
responsibility, the greater is the possibility that it will not be of the standard
required?
(Captain Lowe) Indeed. That is what I am saying. I think there must be a case for
oversight from the regulator to see that the management
processes are in place to ensure that they can trace accountability if need be. So it is
actually looking in an audit process at the management
structure, I am saying, rather than at the detail, but I think there will continue to need
to be a review of some of the detailed operations in an
inspection process, which goes on now, and I think that must continue. Perhaps I could add
a third point, though, which I think is crucial. Both
Stewart John and I, from opposite sides of the world, have come to exactly the same
conclusion and that is that the use of quick access data
recorders, flight data recorders, is the key to both safe operation and to regulation, in
that these quick access recorders, which record thousands of
parameters a second, if the data is correctly analysed, can tell both the airline
management and the operators, be it pilot or engineers, and the
regulatory authority just what is going on. In other words, if we use the modern equipment
which is available and is used by some airlines, the
oversight of the regulator becomes much easier.
231. Yes. Of course, though, that would be a reactive process?
(Captain Lowe) No, it would be very much a proactive one because the use of these
recorders allows you to look, over a long period of time
and many sectors, at both trends and deviations from the norm, rather than simply waiting
for an accident to occur. This should give you the
information well before and we both relied on it very heavily.
Is there more they could do? The answer again is
yes, and as you have already heard me reference, I find it very difficult to understand
why the use of quick access flight data recorders and the subsequent analysis is not made
a mandatory piece of equipment because it is a quality control system which is second to
none. Many airlines do use it anyway voluntarily, and I think that in part explains why
some of the JAA airlines and one or two others, certainly in the Far East, have got now
statistically better performance, both in terms of incidents and safety events.
http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm199899/cmselect/cmenvtra/275/9041403.htm
Peter Martin. (the Solicitor and the Honorary Legal
Adviser to the Flight Safety Committee)
http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm199899/cmselect/cmenvtra/275/9042804.htm
Wearing another hat I am the Honorary Solicitor to
the Royal Aeronautical Society and we are aware on the council that there is an
appalling skills shortage in maintenance engineers, great and growing. There is a whole
range of reasons. One is low professional status, another has
to do with diminishing numbers coming from the armed services, a whole range of reasons,
and the Royal Aeronautical Society is doing what it can in
trying to improve recruitment by finding a way of improving their professional status
through membership of the Royal Aeronautical Society. It is a
huge issue and there is a specialist committee operating at the Royal Aeronautical Society
with oversight of this and perhaps you should invite them to
address you.
(Captain Kerr) One of the concerns of the overall
concept of JAA that we have is that it is a bit like the camel train, it is as quick as
the slowest
camel in the train and likewise in the area of self-regulation what we are alluding to
there is that under the self-regulatory aspects of JAA the airline
very much regulates itself with an oversight from the Authority. In doing so we feel that
the day of the experienced flight operations inspector who
could go in and see a developing problem because he had seen it before because he had been
doing the job for donkeys' years could be
797. Does that mean, Captain Kerr, that your Committee is concerned that the process could
lead to what is popularly called "dumbing down" rather
than not only maintaining but ensuring that the high safety standards in the United
Kingdom are spread throughout the whole of the JAA's activities?
(Captain Kerr) Our concern is that it is essential that the high standards of regulation
and safety standards in this country must be maintained and
that we must not find ourselves working to the lowest common denominator.
798. Do you think there is a danger of that?
(Captain Kerr) I believe there is unless we regulate very strongly.
http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm199899/cmselect/cmenvtra/275/9042805.htm
Mr Bennett (MP)
817. If you convince us with a bit of passion and we
put it in the report we might have a chance of convincing our colleagues but, come on,
smokehoods and cabin water-misting systems?
(Mr Humphreyson) Chairman, the Manchester air disaster sparked several studies one
recommendation of which was smokehoods and evolving
out of that was water sprays. There is no doubt that these things are advantageous,
however the studies that have been done, the cost-benefit
analyses, have said it would be too costly for industry, it is not mandated worldwide and
therefore it would make the playing field unlevel and those
mandates would put us at a commercial disadvantage and of course the bottom line is What
price do you place on a human life? The CAA study said
that they were not going to mandate smokehoods in United Kingdom aircraft but
suffice to say that I and most of the AAIB and all the insurance assessors that I know
would not fly without one and I carry one wherever I go.
http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm199899/cmselect/cmenvtra/275/9042806.htm
820. What is your view of the suggestion there is
something wrong with the rudder of the Boeing 737?
(Mr Humphreyson) One of the problems that affects the aviation industry is an accident
that has no solution. I think it is the Committee's view that
improved flight data recording in the case of the two Boeing rudder incidents that
resulted in fatalities may have been better investigated with better
flight data recorders, cockpit recorders and the like. Not just better in terms of the
technical recording that is done, the number of parameters
recorded, but also the length of time that they record and I think our Committee would
like to see better and longer recording to enable investigators to get to the root cause
of problems such as the 737 rudder problem more easily. That applies not only to the 737
rudders but others. I am delighted to say that the NTSB has recently made a recommendation
on modifications to 737 rudders which hopefully will come forward. The two accidents I
allude to did not happen in the UK. Another aspect of the investigation of course is the
admission of liability by the manufacturer particularly in the
United States where litigation is such a major problem.
821. Of course, the fact it happened in America really has no bearing on the facts because
there are so many Boeing products in this country and so
many of them are flown by British airlines.
(Mr Humphreyson) The point I am making is
822. is a legal one.
(Mr Humphreyson) Is that our system would enable us perhaps to get to the root cause more
quickly.
823. Faster.
(Mr Humphreyson) Because the manufacturer does not face the same litigation problems.
824. Can I then finally ask you, particularly to the
man carrying a smokehood in his pocket, how important is it we go for survivability of
crashes
rather than improving the reliability of aircraft?
(Mr Humphreyson) I think I am in the hot seat on this one.
825. You have drawn the short straw all round this afternoon.
(Mr Humphreyson) I am asked this question I usually quote the Kegworth accident where
survivability would have been betterBritish Midland
Airways fitted 16 G seats into that aeroplane. They were not mandated at the time but they
fitted them because they thought there would be better
survivability. Unfortunately, of course, they retro-fitted them into 8 G flooring and
therefore the 16 G seats did not improve survivability. Therefore, it
is a very complicated problem where you have aeroplanes with grandfather rights evolved
where some of the systems do not meet or it is not
economical to update them to the safety standards that would be survivable.
http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm199899/cmselect/cmenvtra/275/9042812.htm
Capt Vivian (OIC Flt Ops Dept CAA -Safety Regulation
Div)
933. Alright. Then let us ask something else. What
advice have you issued to operators and air traffic controllers in respect of overweight
landings
following the Swissair accident?
(Captain Vivian) Insofar as it is available to people flying, for example Boeing or Airbus
aircraft, it is already written into the flight manuals and the
operating manuals that in an emergency people can land overweight and face the
consequences afterwards. By the consequences I mean the damage
to the aircraft that may ensue. There is nothing new in that. What is new is that people
recognise that they may have a serious situation and that fuel
dumping is not the top priority. The top priority is to divert and land and to that extent
that is being emphasised by training companies at the present
time. It is a balance between whether you dump fuel and land afterwards or whether you
land immediately. The sort of time when we would expect
someone to land immediately would be a fire.
934. British Airways specifically mentioned fires, "cabin fires in the air,
especially the advice on overweight landings".
(Captain Vivian) The advice is you land, you do not hesitate, you do not hang about, you
do not waste time burning off fuel and aircraft are able to
land overweight. There is no magic there. They will not fail.
935. So you have not felt the need to put in any specific change in your advice?
(Captain Vivian) What we have done is made sure that airlines reinforce this advice and
that is what we looked at through our inspection
programme, to make sure people are not conditioned in taking one action at the expense of
another, they weigh up the consequences.
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